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Dear Avrom,
Thank you for writing to The Refiner's Fire! The proofs we present come straight out of the Bible. Nothing "subjective".
YOU SAID: I was in the messianic movement for many years and associated with the leadership of the main group of messianic synagogues. There were many people who I admired[and still do]that really believed the christian doctrine that was set by the council of Nicene. Answer me, How many Jews were involved in that council? In all of the statement of faith of the messianic movement I have found it is identical to mainstream christianity. The only difference is that the messianics according to their movement believe in the Torah. Some more and some less as to observance of it. It is still secondary to the christian of faith.
We agree with you! However, our statement of faith is not identical, as it was written by a young Jewish lawyer who found the Truth of Messiah Yeshua and eventually contacted The Refiner's Fire to tell us that our site was all that was keeping him sane at the time because his family had disowned him. What kind of a family would disown a member just because he has found the continuation of Judaism?
YOU SAID: We do not believe in religion and are not associated with any religion. We believe that christianity, rabbinic judaism, islam are all man made.
We agree with you again! "Religion" IS a man-made thing. The Refiner's Fire only adheres to the term "Hebraic Faith" and "Messianic Judaism" because it's a point of reference so that people will have a basic idea as to where we stand. We stand with the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation.
YOU SAID: In saying that, let me assure you that I am not a heathen or pagan. If the Torah was given by God or simply embraced by the Hebrews there is no better way to live and I would challenge you or anyone to show me a different covenant that was told in the Hebrew Scriptures. What you quote in Jer31 is not a NEW testament but a renewable original covenant. In fact, that time has not come yet. People are still teaching others about Gods' covenant. HE says it will not be necessary.
At the risk of sounding "canned" if you were actually part of the "Messianic Movement" and actually had that "personal relationship" with Yeshua, then you could never have left Him. You might have had "head knowledge" but your head and your heart never truly connected when it came to Yeshua.
According to every Bible version we've ever found, God is talking about a NEW covenant in Jer. 31 - not a "renewable" one:
31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. 32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them, " declares the LORD. 33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."
This is a new COVENANT, not a new "testament" as you stated. God is God. He can do anything He wants. And He obviously wanted to give us a NEW Covenant, or He would have said "renewable". His NEW Covenant came to be via Yeshua, who was foreshadowed throughout the Tanach.
YOU SAID: All of the proof texts you quote in the Source Document as to the coming of Yeshua can be answered. You don't accept them so conversely why should your antagonists accept your proof?
Well, we suggest you answer them, then. Don't just tell us we're wrong without providing examples. Also, we don't know what you mean by "Source Document" and we don't understand your phrasing "You don't accept them so conversely why should your antagonist accept your proof"....Please enlighten us.
YOU SAID: Because yours are proof and theirs are not!!! Be realistic. I have been on your side and nobody had to convince me to see error in that belief. It was over a period of years that culminated my leaving the movement because of these so called proof texts that I originally firmly believed in. When a person sees only one side and does not give any credence to anything else they are locked in.
Well, we see the Bible as a whole - one, continuous God-breathed document, and we understand Torah AND Yeshua. They don't clash. If you see only one side, then you have been deceived by Satan, the father of lies and confusion....
YOU SAID: If you are a Jew can you not see what christianity and to a lesser extent islam is trying to do?
Absolutely! Whenever man gets into the equation, confusion rules. The thing is, the Jews have HALF the Bible, and the Christians have the other HALF. Neither side apparently understands the fact that YHWH had a natural progression.
Judaism has lost many of its "religious" people because God's word has been twisted and manipulated by the rabbis, and it abruptly ends with God having removed any way to atone for sin. Therefore, many swing beheaded chickens over their heads on Yom Kippur in hopes to do SOMETHING to help themselves. (Sounds like voodoo, don't it?) Like Islam, Judaism seems to be a religion of "works" to try to please God. Most Jews know ABOUT YHWH, but they have refused to open their ears to the REST of the story.....
On the other hand, Christians - many, if not most, haven't got the slightest clue about the "OT" which contains God's teaching and instruction -and started their belief system in the middle of a book, without knowing the origin of their God; and they've consequently turned Him into somebody who in no way resembles the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. They, too, have misunderstood who God is. Not only that, but they erroneously believe He abolished Torah.
Both sides are lost in their stubborness to recognize that "God breathed" and then He CONTINUED "breathing"....
YOU SAID: Since for 2000 years christianity has tried to make Jews believe in their doctrine. They for the most part have been unsuccessful. Let me get rid of islam first. Up until recently the moslems have left the Jews alone[last 100 years]and considered them people of the BOOK. Not the new testament but the Hebrew Bible. The radicals who want to convert the world to islam started on the Israelis' first and if successful will next get on the christians. They want to convert the world to islam. No different then the christians. Methods may be different but that is their end result.
Actually, that isn't true. "No different than Christians" is an unfair statement. Christians at least believe in the same God - they just don't understand Him through the eyes of Torah. Islam's Allah is a demon god. No doubt - Christians have definitely done some dirty deeds in order to try to force "Christianity" on the Jews, but they are NOT worshipping a demon god who urges them to kill all "infidels". Do you see Christians beheading Jews for not accepting "Jesus"? If your answer is: "Remember the Crusades and Pogroms" then I'd like to ask you to re-read the Tanach will is FULL of stories about Jews being ordered by their God to kill and conquer....Nobody can point fingers here!
Traditional Jews are crawling out of the woodwork everywhere and making Christians and Messianic believers sound as if they are their worst enemy. Well, perhaps it's time to remove the scales from their eyes and realize who is at war with Lebanon and why. WHO attacked Israel in 1967? WHO forcefully removed the Jews from Gaza recently? WHO killed a Jewish man in Seattle recently, simply because the man was Jewish? Can you blame that on Christians?
It's also time to realize that Netzarim/Messianic believers and Christians (not all Christians because many don't understand the importance of the Jews or that they are worshipping a Jewish Messiah) are the ONLY allies that the Jews and Israel have! The rest of the world, in case you haven't noticed, HATES the Jews. Just try to wear your yarmulke on the streets of Paris and see what happens....
If you don't think anti-Semitism is on the rise, read what a "Skinhead" sent to us recently - And that's just ONE example!
YOU SAID: Now lets get back to the wonderful christian doctrine that christians and messianics believe is the word of God. About roughly forty years ago christianity seeing that conversion of the Jews was not succeeding decided on another tactic.
We don't employ any "tactics". You are free to examine in the Bible everything we say....
YOU SAID: They set up through different means ministries to convert Jews to Jesus. That also didn't work. Then they thought up[probably with jews who had converted]the brilliant idea of making this a jewish movement with Jewish symbols, prayer,[why they use rabbinic liturgy I will never understand] holidays, festivals. etc, etc.
Your history is a bit skewed and you are GUESSING about their supposed ulterior motives. The fact is, those people REALIZED the importance of Torah and wanted the world to know it, including traditional Jews. It wasn't some "scheme" to try to convert unsuspecting Jews. Instead of being angry about it, you should be thanking the founding fathers of the Netzarim faith/Messianic Judaism - Yeshua and His Disciples!
Granted, there are those who go overboard with their zealousness - there are "crazies" in every "denomination" including in the various sects of Judaism. But why give up your Savior because of the antics of some kooks and weirdos? There used to be a bumper sticker that read: If you allow a hypocrite to stand between you and God, then he is closer to God than you are! That applies in your case.
YOU SAID: If this is a continuation of judaism why did most of the clergy [rabbis' pastors'] get their religious training from christian seminaries? Today of course they have set up messianic yeshivas' still teaching the christian statement of faith.
Who cares where or how they got their training, as long as they are teaching BIBLICAL TRUTH? Why should they go to traditional Yeshivas where Yeshua isn't even taught - Where only HALF the Bible is taught! As long as the teaching lines up with the ENTIRE Bible, "training" by man/our limited human mindsets isn't necessary. Look at all the past traditional rabbis and how they came up with an "oral law" composed of what they THOUGHT God might have meant. Take a look at how the Catholics and the Christian churches have skewed what the Tanach actually said! Look at how you, yourself have skewed the Word by bouncing back and forth between beliefs! If you had ever been a true believer in Yeshua, you would have KNOWN, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that He WAS and IS YHWH's promised "New Covenant"! You would have KNOWN that Yeshua was one aspect of YHWH - not a replacement of YHWH, but a way for YHWH to reveal Himself to us in a human form that we could better understand than a "pillar of cloud or fire" - an aspect who was able to talk to us, face-to-face, to teach us about YHWH, and then to offer His human form as the FINAL and DIVINE Sin Sacrifice!
If one is listening to the Ruach HaKodesh (Holy Spirit) then YHWH Himself equips him with what he needs to know....
YOU SAID: Seeing this and the determination of christians to convert Jewish people it is really no wonder that you get such negative and vile comments directed toward you. They I believe feel although you are not killing them you are trying to erase them in other ways. Even though as mentioned before I do not believe in rabbinic judaism I certainly know that if not for that the Jewish people would not exist today. For myself I am aligned with a group that follows as best as possible the Bible.
Who's trying to "erase" the Jews (besides the Muslims)? The Refiner's Fire is an apologetics ministry which DEFENDS Yeshua from the barbs of traditional Jews, atheists, Muslims, Satanists, White Supremacists, etc. We have just as much right to be here as Rabbi Singer and his ilk who - unlike us - are well-funded by their followers while they are spreading outright lies about Christians and Messianic believers, not only via the internet but also using other electronic media such as radio and television. We're not trying to "erase" anybody! That is an uninformed and assinine comment!
We are here to provide BIBLICAL Truth. People can choose to accept it or reject it.
The bottom line is: The Ruach strongly nudged the rabbis and teachers at The Refiner's Fire to take on the "anti-missionaries" who are out on the 'net spewing forth vile comments about Yeshua and believers in Yeshua. THEY are trying to "erase" believers in Yeshua, and as long as there are Rabbi Singers out there, there will be The Refiner's Fire rebuking their lies and sarcasm.
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