The Refiner's Fire's Response:

(1) If that is true, then why does the link to your article "Christians Should Use Their Head and Think" contain the word "xtian"?

(2) If that is true, then why does author John Stone use curse words and ugly language in his article entitled Christianity Revealed Internet Classroom? (These are just a COUPLE of examples from this particular author!)

Example: "THIS IS CRAP! THESE ARE LIES! CHRISTIANITY IS FILLED WITH DAMN LIES!" In another article, he says: "Millions were killed on the altar of false religion! Today, the pen has replaced the sword, but the question still remains: does a self-negating, divided Christianity, with its horror-story theology of a dead man-G-d 'saviour,' have any valid message for mankind?! The answer is, NO!"

By the way, this same author, upon receiving my e-mail about his reference to Christians as "xtians", wrote me the following note:

You should go to Christianity Revealed at http://jdstone.org. You will love this site! It will refine your ass!

In yet another e-mail, he went on to say: Your god was a dead man. Your dead man-god:

• crawled out from between a woman's thighs
  
  
• cried for his food
  
  
• suckled teats
  
  
• crapped his pants
  
  
• had to be taught to read and write and grew up and was killed!

I've got news for you -- that is NOT your CREATOR! That is a pagan idiot's dead-man god! Only an ignorant dumb a-- would embrace that line of crap!

....And when I wrote and told him, "That's what I love about you Orthodox types. You're so.....ungodly and crude. God must be so proud." HE replied:

You Idiot -- I am a gentile. So much for your dumb ASS-U-mptions.

Well. So much for the assertion that this website wasn't designed to criticize Christians. How unprofessional can you get? Somebody needs to wash that guy's mouth out with soap....

Before we move on to challenge some of Christianity Revealed's assertions, I want to address the above e-mail:

Our "dead-man" God:

• ...crawled out from between a woman's thighs

Only a vicious woman hater would spew forth that kind of garbage about the birth process! (May I remind you that that is how YOU came into this world?) The Tanach foreshadowed Yeshua's birth, life, and death, whether you want to admit it, or not. (See Isaiah 53; How Can Yeshua be the Messiah?; Who Does Messiah Say He Is?; So You Don't Believe Yeshua is God?; and Evidence that Yeshua is the Son of God.

Isaiah 7:14 - Therefore Adonai himself will give you people a sign: the virgin will become pregnant, bear a son and name him 'Immanu El [God is with us].

Why are you picking and choosing what you want to believe out of the Tanach? God sent an aspect of Himself to earth in the form of a human so that we could better understand the things of God through someone we humans could RELATE to. He was then destined to die as the Final Sin Sacrifice. God had a PLAN, and you - with your limited, human mindset - are in effect telling God He's an idiot! Shame on you!

• ...and grew up and was killed!

You'd better fall on your face and THANK GOD for that! Yeshua was predestined to be our Final Sin Sacrifice. If He had chosen to "chicken out" at the last minute, we'd ALL be in the proverbial "world of hurt"....

• I've got news for you -- that is NOT your CREATOR! That is a pagan idiot's dead-man god! Only an ignorant dumb a-- would embrace that line of crap!

Herod said basically the same thing, didn't he? If Yeshua was not God, then throw out your Torah because the prophets were wrong and the whole thing is a farce, because He was foreshadowed throughout that Tanach. Yeshua is risen! As a matter of fact, the Jews and the Romans (government and religion) were very much afraid of having to post guards at his tomb....and they still couldn't stop Him. So, who are YOU to dismiss the WORD OF GOD?

The Refiner's Fire's Response:

(1) Oh, how I would LOVE to be a fly on the wall on Judgment Day, when you explain to Yeshua the awful things you said about Him! Your blasphemy is beyond compare. How sad it must be to be prisoner of a limited, human mindset!

(2) "Jesus and his merry band of disciples" performed miracles seen by man witnesses. The examples you gave prove that you have no clue about Yeshua.

He "killed a tree": Reference the cursing of a tree that did not or did not as of the time bear figs, this illustrates perfectly the authority of the word of faith; it was not a temper tantrum. Yeshua illustrates the works of faith continuously throughout the New Testament Scriptures. "For as many as believed on Him, to them gave He the power to become the children of God..." , certainly it is an admonishment to believers to rely on the power of prayer and faith, not self-righteousness or physical force. Ask, Believe, Receive ... key elements to successful prayer which were so important to the Lord that he chose to sacrifice the fig tree to illustrate the power available to those who believe. "Not by might, not by power, but by my Spirit says the Lord."

Destroys a herd of swine: This is self-explanatory, and I don't see why you have a problem with it: Mark 5:1-20: 1 They came to the other side of the sea, to the country of Gerasenes. 2 And when he had come out of the boat, there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit, 3 who lived among the tombs; and no one could bind him any more, even with a chain; 4 for he had often been bound with fetters and chains, but the chains he wrenched apart, and the fetters he broke in pieces; and no one had the strength to subdue him. 5 Night and day among the tombs and on the mountains he was always crying out, and bruising himself with stones. 6 And when he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and worshiped him; 7 and crying out with a loud voice, he said, "What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I adjure you by God, do not torment me." 8 For he had said to him, "Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!" 9 And Jesus asked him, "What is your name?" He replied, "My name is Legion; for we are many." 10 And he begged him eagerly not to send them out of the country. 11 Now a great herd of swine was feeding there on the hillside; 12 and they begged him, "Send us to the swine, let us enter them." 13 So he gave them leave. And the unclean spirits came out, and entered the swine; and the herd, numbering about two thousand, rushed down the steep bank into the sea, and were drowned in the sea. 14 The herdsmen fled, and told it in the city and in the country. And people came to see what it was that had happened. 15 And they came to Jesus, and saw the demoniac sitting there, clothed and in his right mind, the man who had the legion; and they were afraid. 16 And those who had seen it told what had happened to the demoniac and to the swine. 17 And they began to beg Jesus to depart from their neighborhood. 18 And as he was getting into the boat, the man who had been possessed with demons begged him that he might be with him. 19 But he refused, and said to him, "Go home to your friends, and tell them how much the Lord has done for you, and how he has had mercy on you." 20 And he went away and began to proclaim in the Decap'olis how much Jesus had done for him; and all men marveled.

Advocates killing his enemies, lies even to his disciples and disrespects his parents: Chapter and verse, please! You assume a lot, but don't produce evidence.

(3) Christianity IS "all about love, understanding, and compassion!" YHVH, God the Father, used to put people to death for veering off His path (i.e., see Leviticus 10:1). God loved us so much that He gave His only Son: John 3:16. Yes, Christianity has a bloody history - but NOT because of God: because of MAN and his limited, human mindset! Man has always ignored God and done his "own thing", even when it's supposed to be in "God's Name".

(4) Christians are still fighting and dying in Ireland and anti-Semitism is growing by leaps and bounds. Think about it - who started this hateful anti-Semitism that the Muslims have now picked up? CHRISTIANS! Again, MAN'S limited, human mindset! It's got nothing to do with Yeshua. Just like YHVH has nothing to do with the fact that ORTHODOX JEWS are PHYSICALLY harassing Messianic Jews and Christians in Israel (trashing cars, physically assaulting, destroying property....) Don't make the Orthodox types out to be saints, because they AIN'T!

....Hateful anti-Semitism that the Muslims have now picked up??? You need to read the Quran, buddy! Their anti-Semitism comes straight from Allah and Muhammed! (See The Conflict Between Jews and Arabs.) Their fight with the Jews dates back to Isaac and Ishmael. So, don't be blaming the Christians for that! At least get your history straight before you make uninformed opinions....

Perhaps you'd do well to remember that Messianic Jews and Christians are the Jews BEST and ONLY allies in the world these days. Get on the 'net and check the latest anti-Semitic headlines! The rest of the world hates Israel and the Jews and, as the Bible tells us, one day the entire world will go up against Israel. What you are doing by spewing forth this propaganda is to incite Christians and Messianics to hate you "Torah-only" types and, consequently the Orthodox Jews. God forbid! In essence, YOU are responsible for trying to arouse anti-Semitism!

(1) That statement is not entirely true. While most Christians are NOT aware that God wants us to "walk in Torah", they DO follow Jesus! After all, they're not going around saying, "Paul saves"....Your website doesn't give us any specifics about the so-called forgeries, nor does it prove that "today’s Christians do not follow the faith of Jesus." You are GENERALIZING!

(2) True to a certain extent. Many Christians DON'T have a clue about Torah. They think Jesus "did away with it" because they have confused God's original teaching and instruction with "being under the Law". Yeshua came to "do away with" the rabbinical, man-made stuff; not His own Torah!

(3) It's amazing that Christiniaty Revealed even bothers to mention Jesus, since they believe the New Testament to be a bogus document. Like every other ant-missionary site, they pick and choose Scriptures from the ENTIRE BIBLE in order to prove their points! Yeshua definitely DID tell His followers to keep Torah. The Apostle Paul NEVER contradicted Him, Moses, or any other Bible prophet on this point. This is a misconception of both Jews and Gentiles. Paul, like Jesus, was trying to teach people to rid themselves of man-made traditions, philosophies, and works; not to turn their backs on Torah! (See The Apostle Paul, and Miscellaneous Questions)

The Refiner's Fire's Response:

Yes, Torah is DEFINITELY the "source" document; there is no arguing that. It was given by God to mankind via His chosen people, to receive and maintain for eternity. God DID say that man may not add to or take away from His Torah. However, the "Christian" Bible is a CONTINUATION of the Tanach, written by KNOWN authors who were inspired by God. Nobody "added to" or "took away" from the Word God Himself spoke (and which anti-missionaries just LOVE to ignore)!

Because the People of Israel broke the covenant they made with God in Sinai, God gave them - through the prophet Jeremiah - a prophecy concerning the establishment of a new, different covenant:

Jeremiah 31:31-34: 31 "Here, the days are coming," says Adonai, "when I will make a new covenant with the house is Isra'el and with the house of Y'hudah. 32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers on the day I took them by their hand and brought them out of the land of Egypt; because they, for their part, violated my covenant, even though I, for my part, was a husband to them" says Adonai. 33 "For this is the covenant I will make with the house of Isra'el after those days," says Adonai. "I will put my Torah within them and write it on their hearts; I will be their God, and they will be my people. 34 No longer will any of them teach his fellow community member or his brother, 'Know Adonai'; for all will know me, from the least of them to the greatest; because I will forgive their wickedness and remember their sins no more."

God did not choose another people but remained faithful to the promise He gave to Abraham. The breaking of the covenant by the People of Israel necessitated the establishment of a new covenant, a new framework within which the People of Israel could atone for their sins and keep their closeness to God. Not a new people, but new terms!!!

Although Christianity is off the mark as far as Torah is concerned, Messianic Judaism does NOT replace the Torah in any way! We simply see Yeshua as the Torah come to life. Althhough the COVENANT changed as God promised in Jeremiah 31:31, His Torah has not. "Forever, O Lord, Your word is settled in heaven (Psalm 119:89)." God's provisions have not changed; the penalty for disobedience has not changed; and God's promises have not changed. What HAS changed? (1) The lawgiver has changed: Moses is no longer the steward. (2) The administration has changed: The Torah is administered under a new covenant, no longer on clay tablets but on our hearts via the Holy Spirit. (3) The priesthood has changed: Instead of an Aaronic high priest there is one after the order of Melchizedek - Yeshua, the Son of God/God in the flesh (Psalm 110:4). (4) The sacrifice has changed: Under the Sinai Covenant animal sacrifices were offered; under the New Covenant Messiah offered Himself (Psalm 40:6-8 and Hebrews 10:11-12). We still need a sacrifice, a high priest to mediate on our behalf, an altar, a sanctuary, a covenant. All these are found in the person and work of Messiah Yeshua! (For further information on this subject, please see "Israel: Don't Say "I Didn't Know!")

THE NEW COVENANT is thus firmly established in the shed blood of Yeshua Ha'Maschiah. It confirms and establishes God’s covenants made to Noah, Abraham and David. This new covenant ensures that the earth will be populated for ever, as promised to Noah and that Abraham and his seed will inherit not only the land of Canaan, but the whole world as an everlasting possession. (Romans 4:13). This seed of Abraham in whom all nations are to be blessed is Christ. Galatians 3:16 - Now the promises were spoken to Avraham and to his seed. It doesn't say, "And to seeds," as if to many; on the contrary, it speaks of one - "and to your seed," - and this "one" is the Messiah. Yeshua, who is both Son of God and Son of David, will then be King over all nations, ruling upon the throne of David in Jerusalem. (Luke 1:30-33, Matthew 5:35 Psalm 72:1-8).

Hebrews 8: 6 But now the work Yeshua has been given to do is far superior to theirs, just as the covenant he mediates is better. For this covenant has been given as Torah on the basis of better promises. 7 Indeed, if the first covenant had not given ground for fault finding, there would have been no need for a second one. 8 For God does find fault with the people when he says, " 'See! The days are coming,' says Adonai, 'when I will establish over the house of Israe'el and over the house of Y'hudah a new covenant'...."

The whole discourse in Hebrews 8 to 10 reveals the weakness of the Old covenant. This weakness was mainly in Israel who failed to keep it. However, this former covenant also provided for the erection of a tabernacle with perishable materials, a changing priesthood, and a mode of worship that did not have the power to take away sins. These factors in themselves suggest that former covenant was never intended to be permanent, but was to be replaced. The prophecy of Jeremiah indicated this.

Although the "New Testament" was eventually subjected to numerous translations, additions and subtractions, and various arguments about which were "inspired", Yeshua's disciples called the writings "Scripture"! There were already discussions about which New Testament books were Scripture and which were not, even before all the New Testament books were written. Paul had to defend his writings. At one point he says: "Did the Word of God originate with you?... If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command. If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored" (1 Corinthians 14:36-38). That's strong language claiming that what he writes is God's Word and it is ignored at the reader's peril. Portions of the New Testament are already being called 'Scripture' by Peter and Paul (2 Peter 3:14-16; 1 Timothy 5:18)! Revelation 22:18-19 is further evidence of a distinction between authorized and unauthorized writings. This tells us that a New Testament canon was already developing, even as it was being written!

For the core of the New Testament including the Gospels, Acts, the thirteen epistles of Paul, 1 John, and 1 Peter there was virtually no serious question raised about their canonical authority. Only a handful of books that are now included in our New Testament Bible were ever under serious question. They include such books as Hebrews, James, 2 Peter, Jude, Revelation, and the second and third epistles of John. All of these were finally considered to be of canonical stature and formalized within the canon.

Please realize the canon of Scripture was NOT formed by the declaration of a church council any more than Isaac Newton created the law of gravity. Rather, as written revelation came from God through God's chosen writers, the people of God recognized God's voice and affirmed that the writing was indeed the word of God.

Yeshua said, His sheep follow Him because they know his voice (John 10:4). The people of God knew the word of God when they heard it and read it and, as a result, the 39 books of the Old Testament and the 27 books of the New Testament were recognized and collected into the canon.

Most of the "tunnel-vision" arguments that Christianity Revealed puts forth about the "New Testament" are bogus, skewed, and invalid!

1 Corinthians 2:14 - Now the natural man does not receive the things from the Spirit of God - to him they are nonsense! Morever, he is unable to grasp them, because they are evaluated through the Spirit. 15 But the person who has the Spirit can evaluate everything, while no one is in a position to evaluate him.

Christianity Revealed offers many different authors with many different views - most of which don't even bear mentioning on The Refiner's Fire. The bottom line is: We could challenge every word on that website, but it really isn't worth the time or effort. In the end effect, it's just another anti-missionary site that allows us to gauge exactly how much the anti-missionary Jews and Gentiles DON'T know about God and the Bible....