Dear Refiner's Fire...

Several people responded to our coversations with a Lutheran pastor. Below we've posted some of the more interesting and pointed comments:

I believe in the NT as Holy Scripture breathed by God Himself. I also believe Yeshua came to straighten us all out. When He was ripping on the Pharisees and other 'self proclaimed righteous Jews', He wasn't asking them to take the Torah away, He was clearly asking them to take away the Rabbinical laws. All these "man-made" laws were burdensome, unnecessary, and just plain silly.

Yeshua walked in Torah, He lived Torah, He observed Torah, and He asked His followers to do the same. With that said, it's really as simple as this: Whatever the Torah says -- goes! Yeshua didn't come to get rid of it, He came to fulfill/witness it. Paul did NOT tell believers to get rid of Torah either. He told them to write it on their hearts, but don't do it for salvation purposes because it doesn't work that way. So, why did EVERYTHING change after Yeshua died? There is NO resemblance between how Yeshua worshipped when He was walking the Earth and the way the Christian church worships today.

• Yeshua worshipped on Saturday - the church worships on Sunday
  
  
• Yeshua kept Torah - the church rejects it and says He came to take it away
  
  
• Yeshua ate Kosher - the church says eat whatever you want because it's suddenly now clean? (BADLY MISINTERPRETED SCRIPTURE!)
  
  
• Yeshua kept the BIBLICAL FEASTS ordained by God - the church rejects those feasts days and rather celebrates Him now using holidays originally invented by pagans?
  
  
• Yeshua recognized His family as Hebraic and all who wanted to worship His father did so LIKE THE HEBREWS - the church says that family was rejected and He now has a new family and they can worship Him however they choose (pagan or non-pagan methods) even though Scripture teaches us how He wants us to worship Him.
  
  
• Yeshua told us when we break the bread at Passover to do it in remembrance of Him - the church does it every week and calls it "The Lord's Supper" which was also a pagan form of worship.

There is NOTHING "new" about what Yeshua wanted for us other than a fuller understanding of Torah and to reject man-made laws and decrees. It's for that very reason I reject what the early church fathers did AFTER YESHUA DIED to twist, reject, and change the word of God. If it's not in Scripture, it's not for me! Yeshua didn't worship His Father on the pagan holidays, or eat unclean foods, or reject Torah, so why should we? As humans, we are imperfect... so why do we feel the need to enhance, edit, or change the Word of our perfect God?

The church preaches: "What would Jesus do?" -- What would He do? TORAH!

My big question is this .... Do you believe in Yeshua/God or man? If Yeshua wanted change, why didn't He observe the changes we now see today?

Anonymous

I read your conversation with Lutheran pastor, and while I agree with your standpoint, I have a "sociological" question about the doctrine of Lutheran church. I was surprised to see that towards the beginning of the article the pastor mentioned how he thinks that there were different pagan teachings borrowed by the writers of Torah. I didn't know that any Christian would believe that. I always assume that the replacement theology doctrine is that YES, everything in the Torah was written by God alone, BUT it was "done away with" at the cross. Of course, they are wrong in saying that it was done away with, but the fact remains that they DO acknowledge it is God-breathed, they are ONLY saying God changed his mind.

So I was totally surprised when I read that the pastor didn't think it was God-breathed on the first place, and he said that it was borrowed from pagans. I didn't know there is any Christian on planet earth who teaches it. So could it be that it is one of the doctrinal differences between Lutherans and the rest of Christians, or do you think that particular pastor differs from other Lutherans as well?

I also have another question: in your correspondence you mentioned that you didn't like the concept of trinity because it limits God to only 3 incornations, while in reality it was a lot more incornations (like fire by night and cloud by day, donkey, etc). I 100% agree with this point, but up until now I assumed there were only FEW messianics that rejected trinity the way I do, while most Messianics hold to trinity doctrine. The reason I assumed that was because I saw a lot of Messianic website that include trinity in their statement of faith. I have also heard that during the passover Messianic congregations teach that three pieces of matzot represent the triniity. So do you think that these messianics congregations are also off the mark? Please let me know.

By the way, you mentioned you left out most of the conversation with the pastor. I think it would be nice if you included it. I just think it would be an interesting read. If you are worried about it being too long, you can just put important parts in bold or italics or something like that.

Roman

Our Response....

Dear Readers,

GREAT QUESTIONS and comments!

The bottom line is, this guy is NOT speaking for most Christians or the Lutheran Church. I think he's come up with his own doctrine. He has repeatedly attempted to get me to remove that article and has also asked the bride (whose Messianic wedding caused Tim's outburst) to try to convince me to remove that article. My guess is, he's afraid his superiors might see this and recognize who he is....

In my opinion, those Messianic websites who push the trinity idea, need to re-examine what the Bible says. There is NOTHING in the Bible to substantiate "trinity" nor any other made-up terms (such as "rapture" and "God incarnate"). As a matter of fact, this is amply outlined in a new book called, "Should Christians be Torah Observant?" which says, in part:

While fumbling in all manner of paganism and spiritism, Tertullian picked up an “anointing” of the “Holy Ghost” and coined the word “Trinity” which is one of the most beloved doctrines of the Church to this very day (more on this in a later chapter). The “persons of the trinity” doctrine flourishes in the hierarchy-based religion which sees itself as a three-sided pyramid structure. ....

Persons of the Trinity” is complex; a “person” has an intellect, emotions, a will, a physical body and a spirit; so to say “persons” of the Trinity is very problematic, simply because YHWH is not a “person”. You are a “person” and I am a “person”. We do find that in Torah, the Neviim (Prophets), the Ketuvim Netzarim (writings of the Jewish Disciples) the writers stress that YHWH is Echad, He is ONE. So, although the word “Trinity” might suffice as a harmless and quick reference to the Godhead as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, it is not so innocent a doctrine if one insists there are three “persons” of the “Trinity”. Truth can be transformed into idolatry if we are not extremely careful to base our values and understanding on Scripture.

Yeshua is the Arm of YHWH revealed as God who came in the flesh and is part of what we understand as “the Godhead” but there is no need to imagine two or three beings or persons within “the Godhead” as this kind of thinking is pagan in origin. It wasn't until +/- 220 AD that a Greek thinker named Tertullian coined the term “Trinity” after reading Philo who coined the word “Triad”. By 375 AD martyrdom over the theology of “the Trinity” was well under way in Western Christianity, but it wasn't until the 12th century that the Church of the East also began to use the term.

Philo got his ideas from “Metatron” or what was then the oral Kabbalah which referred to Mashiyach as the “middle pillar” which harmonizes all the Attributes of YHWH as One. Mashiyach came into time and space, but his Father YHWH exists outside of time and space. When Mashiyach was revealed as the Arm of YHWH we saw “the Father” but we did not and could not possibly see all dimensions of YHWH’s power and might! How can finite beings input infinite data into our minds and spirits? It’s not possible, but it is possible for Mashiyach, the “Anointed of YHWH” to reveal the Father to us within time and space.

You have a spirit, you have a mind and body, but one would never separate your spirit from your soul as though they are two different beings; this is where the Church fell into paganism, because the ideas were brought into the Faith of Yeshua by polytheistic pagans.

YOU SAID: By the way, you mentioned you left out most of the conversation with the pastor. I think it would be nice if you included it. I just think it would be an interesting read. If you are worried about it being too long, you can just put important parts in bold or italics or something like that.

Thanks, but it would be at least three times as long as it is now. As a journalist who learned that you lose your readership by, among other things, making an article too long, it just isn't worth it. The main concepts are there, and that's all that matters. The guy kept repeating himself, over and over, and I'm not going to use up space on my website for that. I just wanted the world to see how many Christians think.